Forms of Government - what works best and why?

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Forms of Government - what works best and why?

Post  ShaunMcC on Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:33 pm

This is your opportunity to throw your ideas into play and have them questioned and critiqued by other TJYC students/mentors. To become eloquent and persuasive, you need to have scrutiny so you can refine your thinking and presentation.

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Socialism can work

Post  Demosthenes on Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:33 pm

What is wrong with socialism? Trying to help the poor is a good thing. Most of the super rich just waste what they have. We should all be equal. Even the early Christians and early Mormons had all things in common.

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What's the difference?

Post  Phaedrus on Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:54 pm

That brings up a question I've had for a long time: What is the difference between the United Order and Communism and Socialism? It seems that the simplified definition of Socialism would be that the government takes everything from the people (through taxes) and then decides how it should be distributed. This is all done under the guise of protecting and providing for the people. How is that much different than Communism? The distinct difference I see with the United Order or Law of Consecration is that no one is compelled to submit to the system. There must be other differences. Maybe someone can enlighten me? Rolling Eyes

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Re: Forms of Government - what works best and why?

Post  Radish on Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:21 pm

Honestly, I agree with Phaedrus on the fact that Communism isn't very much different than Socialism. A lot of Countries have used that method, and if you look at it, it seems like every time it was what caused that Country's downfall. Communism and Socialism, the method of taking all that, We, The People, have. It's shown well in the book "Red Scarf Girl". The Emperor of China at the time knew that if he took everything from the people slowly and surely, convincing them that it was a good thing, he would have more and more power. He purposefully manipulated everyone into thinking that his plan was good. A lot of people are doing that now in America.

Am I Right?

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United Order?

Post  Demosthenes on Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:37 pm

I don't see a lot of difference between the United Order and Communism. In both cases you give your stuff to a ruler - be it religious or governmental. They then distribute it as they see fit. The opportunity for abuse is the same in both cases, the people who run the thing get to take what they want and give others what the rulers think the others should have. Hopefully, if it is a religious organization, they would do better because they might actually believe they have to answer to God, but if they are not true believers they could abuse the system just like the Communists did. That's why those systems fail. If everyone in a Communist system actually had the best interest of the people at heart, would it not work about the same?

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Difference

Post  Radish on Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:13 pm

There is a lot of difference between the United Order and Communism. Though, there is opportunity for abuse with the process in both cases. And you're right about if they truly believed it was a right thing and everyone had a good understanding of what it was for, and they would use it for good things, instead of abusing the money and power.

The thing is, the difference is mainly this: Communism is when the government owns everything that the people "posess", and they may take it and use it when and how they wish. The United Order wasn't like that. The people gave to the "ruler" willingly, because they knew that he wouldn't use it for dis-honest purposes. They wanted to help. It wasn't the government or religious leader just barging in and saying "Okay, I want this, and this, and that over there."

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US Socialism?

Post  Demosthenes on Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:04 am

Ok, Radish. I will grant you those differences. But not only our president, but most of our congress seems to believe that the government can use it's broader view of what is needed to allocate resources more effectively, whether in health care or in helping the poor or in helping with world problems or whatever. They seem to think that because there is a large difference in what people make (income) that it should be okay to take more of what rich people have to make those who don't have as much better off. The rich don't need as much as they are getting and the poor need more than they are getting. Isn't that a compassionate way to do things?

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Re: US Socialism

Post  Radish on Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:18 pm

Alright, I can see your points that you're trying to make here. I agree fully when you say that it seems like the Congress and the President are feeling that because the rich get more, and the poor get less, that it'd be a good thing to take from those rich and help the poor people out more. BUT, the problem is exactly that. They think it's completely fine to just take what they want to help the needy. That isn't the way to do things. Don't you think it's like stealing? The government can just take whatever they want just because they want to help the poor? That's like stealing from a restaurant to give someone food.

Bottom line is this: It isn't a compassionate way to do things because it's only being "compassionate" to the poor, and it won't help anyone in the end.

Just because the rich have more doesn't mean we have the right to take it away from them. The Declaration of Independence clearly states: "..That they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." The main part is the end. We're taking away that Pursuit of Happiness that the rich desire. If being rich makes them happy, wouldn't that be pursuing happiness?

The Constitution as well states that we have the right to keep our property and have completely control over it. It's their property, and not the governments. They can't just take it from them!

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Participation

Post  ShaunMcC on Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:47 am

We need more ideas from more people. I appreciate the ones who are posting and taking a chance by putting their ideas out there, but the point is for the class members to decide what they believe and then put it out there for others to comment and question. For example, has anyone read Ayn Rand? Is there a difference between charity and forced charity? How do those things affect the giver and the receiver? Who is John Galt? What is wrong with what Ayn Rand tries to say? What was George Orwell concerned about and how did he portray his thinking with his writing. There's a lot of good stuff here and it pertains to our future. Be brave - take a shot - allow the others commenting to refine your thinking. It's worth it!

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Re: US Socialism

Post  Phaedrus on Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:43 am

I think Radish expressed it well. We have the right to Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. There are no guarantees. But we are free to pursue every good thing. Rich and poor alike are free to pursue it. So long as the government doesn't intervene and try to dole out everything that they determine will "make everyone happy", we can continue to seek after the virtuous, lovely and praiseworthy things in this world.

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Re: Forms of Government - what works best and why?

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